PSG-1
Well-known member
Ictalurus said:
Same here, except, I used the pink foam board. I'm hoping the answer is that it's OK, and I don't have to end up replacing it!
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Same here, except, I used the pink foam board. I'm hoping the answer is that it's OK, and I don't have to end up replacing it!
Some searching on the DOW Blue board Styrofoam:
Extruded Styrofoam
This is Styrofoam Square Edge (extruded) often called “blueboard” due to its light blue color. Dow calls it STYROFOAM™ Brand Square Edge Insulation Extruded Polystyrene. It is:
one piece with air gaps sealed inside (extruded)
brittle but less fragile
about 20% better as an insulator (modest as an insulator goes)
is completely impervious to moisture (hydrophobic)
Extruded Styrofoam
This is Styrofoam Square Edge (extruded) often called “blueboard” due to its light blue color. Dow calls it STYROFOAM™ Brand Square Edge Insulation Extruded Polystyrene. It is:
one piece with air gaps sealed inside (extruded)
brittle but less fragile
about 20% better as an insulator (modest as an insulator goes)
is completely impervious to moisture (hydrophobic)
Bigkat650
Well-known member
FuzzyGrub said:
Hmm I'll be honest, I used peoples word on here as to whether it was closed-cell or not--I honestly did not research it further like I usually do. Reason being was my local Lowes had something that I knew was closed cell, and it was actually a better price. That plus I have not actually purchased any yet. It would be good to determine exactly what these foam boards are and whether they are indeed 100% impervious to water.
The original floatation foam in my Starcraft Mariner v and Smokercraft Fishmaster bench seats was/is plain white styrofoam. ie the non-extruded stuff. My fiberglass bowrider has the poured in type. The blue stuff has to be better than that.
xbacksideslider
Well-known member
I agree, no foam is totally water resistant. Still, styrofoam is both lighter and more resistant than most - best compromise.
I found 4x8 sheets of styrofoam that are faced on both sides with a moisture barrier of thin plastic. Only the edges are without a moisture barrier.
I bought it in 1/2" 3/4" and 1" dimension and used it to build up and flatten V hull's floors; no wood stringers or joists or rivets. Faced the styrofoam with that thin 1/8" plywood that is used for underlayment.
Raised the floor maybe two inches at the center line. Spray can contact cement glued the layers together and the 1/8" plywood to the layered styrofoam underneath. The foam can be cut neatly with a hacksaw blade.
The floor panels are one piece and easily removed for cleaning/drying underneath.
I found 4x8 sheets of styrofoam that are faced on both sides with a moisture barrier of thin plastic. Only the edges are without a moisture barrier.
I bought it in 1/2" 3/4" and 1" dimension and used it to build up and flatten V hull's floors; no wood stringers or joists or rivets. Faced the styrofoam with that thin 1/8" plywood that is used for underlayment.
Raised the floor maybe two inches at the center line. Spray can contact cement glued the layers together and the 1/8" plywood to the layered styrofoam underneath. The foam can be cut neatly with a hacksaw blade.
The floor panels are one piece and easily removed for cleaning/drying underneath.
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PSG-1
Well-known member
I researched the pink board, and it says that it is closed-cell foam, as well. I feel better knowing that.
OK, so, here's the next question. What about cases where foam has been removed, but a fuel tank has been put there? What kind of buoyancy would something like that provide in a swamping?
I have 2 11 gallon fuel tanks in the stern of my jetboat. I did not foam them back in place, because there was a concern with foam holding water, and causing corrosion to the aluminum tanks, as that is what happened previously, when I had these tanks foamed in place.
OK, so, here's the next question. What about cases where foam has been removed, but a fuel tank has been put there? What kind of buoyancy would something like that provide in a swamping?
I have 2 11 gallon fuel tanks in the stern of my jetboat. I did not foam them back in place, because there was a concern with foam holding water, and causing corrosion to the aluminum tanks, as that is what happened previously, when I had these tanks foamed in place.
FuzzyGrub said:
Fuzzy,
Thanks for the input and clarification. I was pretty sure it was the right choice when I put under the decks. If I remember right, one member on here weighed a piece and submerged it for a week or so and weighed again, no change. Doubt my foam will stay that wet for that long.
WhiteMoose
Well-known member
If anyone is interested, and it may have been discussed before, but Steelflex can be used to seal foam insulation. I tried it and it is messy, but seemed to make a very nice hard coating on an Omaha Steaks styrofoam cooler.
To the question of "Is foam necessary?", I guess I view it as more of a way to save you from losing all your gear than for personal safely. I don't really think I will ever have my 14' jon out more than a 20 second swim to shore, and even if I do get swamped to the point where I am clinging to my disabled boat, I'm not going to sit out there and wait to be rescued by someone.
I have my rear bench seat still full of the factory foam, and 4 extra lifejackets locked in my front storage compartment (in addition to the one I'm usually wearing). I assume this will be enough to keep the nose of my boat bobbing above the water if its ever swamped, but I have no way of knowing for sure. :|
To the question of "Is foam necessary?", I guess I view it as more of a way to save you from losing all your gear than for personal safely. I don't really think I will ever have my 14' jon out more than a 20 second swim to shore, and even if I do get swamped to the point where I am clinging to my disabled boat, I'm not going to sit out there and wait to be rescued by someone.
I have my rear bench seat still full of the factory foam, and 4 extra lifejackets locked in my front storage compartment (in addition to the one I'm usually wearing). I assume this will be enough to keep the nose of my boat bobbing above the water if its ever swamped, but I have no way of knowing for sure. :|
PSG-1 said:
I think the safe answer would be to find space near the stearn that can take the equivelent volume of foam. Adding more would be better.
So, what I say below, is only for discussion
Given the fill and vent line don't go under and no leaks, you have varying amounts of boyancy provided by the tanks. I think worse case, is two full tanks. While the gas is more boyant than water, probably only enough to possibly float the extra weight from the tanks.
If both tanks were half empty (balanced) that would probably be enough air to make-up for lost foam. How well that can hold that air and for how long, may be very risky.
richg99
Well-known member
PSG-1 Interesting question..."will having two fuel tanks in place of foam provide flotation"....
My un-educated guess is...if the tanks were empty and sealed, they would be similar to foam in displacement, other than the slight additional weight of the metal tanks vs foam.
However, if they were full of gasoline, then they wouldn't provide much, if any, flotation since gasoline weighs almost as much as water 6.+ vs 8.+ lbs per gallon. Any empty space on top of the tank that contained air and help somewhat. The tiny outside vent of the tank would gradually let a small amount of water in. But that might take a week or more. regards, Rich
My un-educated guess is...if the tanks were empty and sealed, they would be similar to foam in displacement, other than the slight additional weight of the metal tanks vs foam.
However, if they were full of gasoline, then they wouldn't provide much, if any, flotation since gasoline weighs almost as much as water 6.+ vs 8.+ lbs per gallon. Any empty space on top of the tank that contained air and help somewhat. The tiny outside vent of the tank would gradually let a small amount of water in. But that might take a week or more. regards, Rich
PSG-1
Well-known member
Well, in any case, I have 4 bilge pumps on board this boat, with the combined ability to pump well over 2500 GPH. So, hopefully, I'll never have to find out whether those fuel tanks provide any flotation!
I suppose I could put a block of foam in front of the starboard side fuel tank, I do have a little room there. But on the port side, I wouldn't be comfortable installing foam, as there is a waterbox on this side, located behind the fuel tank, and that waterbox can get pretty warm. There would have to be some kind of heat shield installed to prevent a possible hazard.
I suppose I could put a block of foam in front of the starboard side fuel tank, I do have a little room there. But on the port side, I wouldn't be comfortable installing foam, as there is a waterbox on this side, located behind the fuel tank, and that waterbox can get pretty warm. There would have to be some kind of heat shield installed to prevent a possible hazard.
MrSimon
Well-known member
You make an excellent point about life jackets.
As I mentioned before, I don't really care about foam ... I could take it or leave it and don't think it will ever matter. From a safety perspective, I think that if your gas motor is running, you should wear a life jacket. And when its not running, you should have life jackets laying freely somewhere on the deck.
Life jackets save lives!
Foam saves gear, maybe.
As I mentioned before, I don't really care about foam ... I could take it or leave it and don't think it will ever matter. From a safety perspective, I think that if your gas motor is running, you should wear a life jacket. And when its not running, you should have life jackets laying freely somewhere on the deck.
Life jackets save lives!
Foam saves gear, maybe.
PSG-1
Well-known member
Jdholmes said:PSG-1 said:
41 gallons a minute? Dang...that's like .70 gallons a second! Yeah I think you should be ok, sir.
LOL, I hope so. On the deck, there's a 500 GPH fully automatic, self-contained pump. In the bilge/engine compartment, on the starboard side, there's an 1100 GPH controlled by an electronic float switch, then an 800 GPH controlled by a switch at the console.
Then on the port side of the engine compartment, there's a siphon bilge, that is hooked to the jet pump...the same type of system used in jet skis. As the hose connected to it is 1/2" diameter, I guess-timate its GPH flow to be around 300-350, but that varies, depending on the amount of water exiting the jet nozzle, as more exit pressure equals more suction at the strainer in the bilge. So, at higher RPM, it's obviously going to pump more than it does at idle.
When I had the 2 stroke engine, there was only 1 bilge pump on board, at 1100 GPH.
But then I got swamped by a 3 foot wake from a para-sailing boat, and it flooded my boat so badly that my engine sucked water and blew a piston. When I installed the 4 stroke, already knowing that 4 strokes are even less tolerant of water than 2 strokes, I went overkill with bilge pumps, and also designed the engine compartment so that water has to be over a foot deep on the main deck before it ever starts leaking into the bilge.
I was bored....
How much water does it take to sink this stoneware bowl?
This much...
Yes...that is dirty dishes...and my wife would kill me for posting it but I figured it would show the water level better...
Too bad it didn't have foam, huh?
How much water does it take to sink this stoneware bowl?
This much...
Yes...that is dirty dishes...and my wife would kill me for posting it but I figured it would show the water level better...
Too bad it didn't have foam, huh?
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richg99
Well-known member
OK..now then, don't all laugh at once....but...
some years ago I had a wooden/fiberglass dinghy that I used in the pond. The front compartment was open/empty but sealed with a loose hatch. I stuffed a half-dozen or so 2 liter empty, but sealed with the cap screwed on, pop bottles in there.
I read someplace that the flotation was equal to foam...(why not) but that the plastic pop bottles wouldn't absorb water--no matter what. Made sense to me at the time...Still does.
Same thing should be so if one just stuck small sealed water bottles in any open area, as long as the bottles couldn't float out if the boat was swamped. They have to be locked in in some manner.
Rich
some years ago I had a wooden/fiberglass dinghy that I used in the pond. The front compartment was open/empty but sealed with a loose hatch. I stuffed a half-dozen or so 2 liter empty, but sealed with the cap screwed on, pop bottles in there.
I read someplace that the flotation was equal to foam...(why not) but that the plastic pop bottles wouldn't absorb water--no matter what. Made sense to me at the time...Still does.
Same thing should be so if one just stuck small sealed water bottles in any open area, as long as the bottles couldn't float out if the boat was swamped. They have to be locked in in some manner.
Rich
jigngrub
Well-known member
A very simple test to see if your boat needs foam, has waterlogged foam, doesn't have enough foam, or has the right amount of foam is to launch your boat with the drain plug out and leave it until it doesn't take on anymore water... anybody got the cojones to do this?
I have done this with my Tracker Pro Deep by accident (launch without the plug in), the foam in my boat is so good that the bilge doesn't even fill completely and water doesn't come up through the deck drain. I have fished all day with the plug out, only to discover my mishap when I pull the boat out of the water on the trailer and water is shooting out of the bilge drain like a garden hose turned on all the way.
My boat is equipped with the closed cell 2 part pourable urethane foam from the factory.
The 2 part urethane foam can become waterlogged, but it has to be submerged for months for this to happen.
A quote from a urethane supplier:
The blue Dow "Styrofoam" and the pink Owens Corning EPS rigid sheet foam is also closed cell and takes a long time to become waterlogged. The beaded white Styrofoam isn't closed cell and become waterlogged much faster and the beads break down over time.
I would be a very bad scenario to suddenly realize that you really do need the floatation foam that you so stupidly removed from your boat and didn't replace. Especially if you're boating over frigid water or get caught out on the lake in a severe storm.
I have done this with my Tracker Pro Deep by accident (launch without the plug in), the foam in my boat is so good that the bilge doesn't even fill completely and water doesn't come up through the deck drain. I have fished all day with the plug out, only to discover my mishap when I pull the boat out of the water on the trailer and water is shooting out of the bilge drain like a garden hose turned on all the way.
My boat is equipped with the closed cell 2 part pourable urethane foam from the factory.
The 2 part urethane foam can become waterlogged, but it has to be submerged for months for this to happen.
A quote from a urethane supplier:
The blue Dow "Styrofoam" and the pink Owens Corning EPS rigid sheet foam is also closed cell and takes a long time to become waterlogged. The beaded white Styrofoam isn't closed cell and become waterlogged much faster and the beads break down over time.
I would be a very bad scenario to suddenly realize that you really do need the floatation foam that you so stupidly removed from your boat and didn't replace. Especially if you're boating over frigid water or get caught out on the lake in a severe storm.
bobbyb
Active member
Excellent topic!
When I purchased my tinnie last September the previous owner told me there was always a little water in the bilge area :shock: "a gallon or 2"
I wanted to refloor and carpet so I removed the floor and found the 2 part Urethane factory foam - with some areas of the foam having a touch of mold and a musty smell to it.
The decision was easy for me. The boat is 17 years old, so is the foam. The previous owners comment about water in the bilge - so out it came.
There was a bit of water creep into the foam, but to be honest not as much as I expected to find. Towards the stern the creep was greatest - about 2" into the foam - and the foam was breaking down.
The bottom line for me - Opening up gave me an opportunity to really clean the alum (Mold) and flood the boat prior to re-installing closed cell foam, looking for the water intrusion.........I found it - the drain under the livewell had a slow leak - and would have continued had I not done what I did.
I used the Closed Cell from Home Depot at 24. a sheet.
It was a lot of work, but at least now, I know what I have under that floor, so no 2nd guessing + added relief I know this boat will float if god forbid anything happened.
Thxs again to the thread starter - =D> Great and Timely Post =D>
bobby
When I purchased my tinnie last September the previous owner told me there was always a little water in the bilge area :shock: "a gallon or 2"
I wanted to refloor and carpet so I removed the floor and found the 2 part Urethane factory foam - with some areas of the foam having a touch of mold and a musty smell to it.
The decision was easy for me. The boat is 17 years old, so is the foam. The previous owners comment about water in the bilge - so out it came.
There was a bit of water creep into the foam, but to be honest not as much as I expected to find. Towards the stern the creep was greatest - about 2" into the foam - and the foam was breaking down.
The bottom line for me - Opening up gave me an opportunity to really clean the alum (Mold) and flood the boat prior to re-installing closed cell foam, looking for the water intrusion.........I found it - the drain under the livewell had a slow leak - and would have continued had I not done what I did.
I used the Closed Cell from Home Depot at 24. a sheet.
It was a lot of work, but at least now, I know what I have under that floor, so no 2nd guessing + added relief I know this boat will float if god forbid anything happened.
Thxs again to the thread starter - =D> Great and Timely Post =D>
bobby
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