Ethanol. What else?

[Deadmeat]

Bear with me for this lengthy post on a much-discussed topic--ethanol. I just did a search on the word "ethanol" and read every one of seven pages of posts but still didn't quite find the answer I'm looking for. After being exiled to Atlanta for seven years, I'm now back in Knoxville, Tennessee, which has seven major TVA lakes within a hour's drive of my house. I now need to get a boat, having sold mine in Atlanta after it sat unused for three years.

I want to get a G3 1544, which is rated for a 25hp motor. I dearly love 2-strokes for their reliability, ease of maintenance, and lighter weight. My old 1988 30hp Evinrude was bulletproof and was never in the shop one in the 17 years I had it. I'd consider a used one but so far haven't found one. The alternative is to get a new 25hp Yamaha, and this is probably the last year they'll make a 25hp 2-stroke. After that, they'll keep making a 25hp motor but it will be a 4-stroke and I just can't see bolting on an additional 78 pounds to get the same horsepower as I'd get with a 2-stroke. I also loved the ease of maintenance of the 2-strokes, and more parts in 4-strokes means more maintenance.

I've been keeping tabs on the gas stations selling unadulterated, non-ethanol gas in my area and it looks like although they can still be found, more and more of these places are converting to ethanol. I think that at some point in time it will go the way of leaded gas and only ethanol will be available. I also guess that it's only a matter of time before 2-strokes are outlawed in Tennessee as they have been in other places but I can't see that happening anytime soon.

I know that ethanol: 1. doesn't burn as efficiently in 2-strokes 2. attracts water 3. has a short shelf life 4. eats up gaskets and hoses 5. gunks up carburetors, and 6. probably does some other nasty stuff as well. For those having older 2-strokes, the solution seems to be to: 1. use a water separator 2. use Marine Stabil 3. avoid ethanol to begin with 4. keep the gas tank full to reduce condensation 5. never use old ethanol 6. probably a few other solutions that I can't remember.

I've been talking to a boat dealer (G3 Guy, you know who that is) who is telling me that the new Yamaha 2-strokes don't suffer from the same problems using ethanol-based gas that the older 2-strokes do. He says that the innards (gaskets, hoses, etc.) were manufactured with using ethanol in mind and that they don't get eaten up by it. He say they've had virtually no problems in these motors resulting from the use of ethanol.

So the dilemma is this: Which do I do? Keep looking for a used 2-stroke, hoping that they keep selling non-ethanol gas or, alternatively, use one or more of the above-mentioned solutions? Or do I take the dealer's word for it that the new Yamahas don't have the ethanol problem and buy a new one? Obviously, I'd rather not spend the extra bucks for a new motor if I don't have to, but if this will turn out to be a better solution over the long haul I'd do it. I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts on it, particularly those of you with Yamaha 2-strokes. Also, if there's something I'm missing here or if there's another solution, I'd like to hear that as well.

Oh, by the way, Yamaha has a promotional going on until this coming Saturday that the normal 2-year warranty will be extended an additional 3 years making the warranty good for 5 years.

 

[G3_Guy]

Great Post Deadmeat... and yes I do know who you are talking about. :wink:

These are questions that have been asked of dealers and on message boards across the US. I agree that the locations selling non-ethanol gas appear to be shrinking monthly, if not daily. I've spoken to numerous folks with 2-stroke engines who have suffered the terrible fate of having their engine go down due to the detergents eating away the seals in their motor, burning up plugs and all kinds of other problems like those you have listed. I have a two-stroke HPDI Yamaha and it has performed well to date with no real issues (knock on wood). I do try to avoid ethanol as much as possible but unfortunately it can not always be done. I try to treat my gas as often as possible to help reduce the likelihood of encountering the problems you outline in your post above.

I guess the real question for me would be, is this something I feel comfortable working on myself, should something go wrong or would I need to take it to the dealer for repairs. If the answer is working on it yourself, then I would imagine a used 2-stroke would be fine. You can pick up used parts as needed and save yourself a lot of money in labor. However, if the answer is to let the dealer work on it, I think the new engine would be the way to go, as a 5 yr warranty on a 25hp engine really is a good deal and you wouldn't have to foot the bill should a problem arise.

 

[Deadmeat]

G3_Guy, I just talked to Joe (and yesterday I stopped by and talked to Dave on my way back from Atlanta), and he says the word he's getting is that within three months, six at the most, non-ethanol gas will be non-existent. We had a long talk about the things I discussed in this post, and he told me that he's never seen a 2-stroke Yamaha have a problem with ethanol as long as a couple simple rules are followed--don't burn old gas and use a 10-micron water separator. He said that lots of folks, like me, still prefer the 2-strokes and the 25hp is in huge demand. As a result, he stocked up on 25, 50, and 90hp 2-strokes knowing that this is the last year they'd be made. As far as used motors go, he said he rarely sees a good 25 2-stroke come into the dealership and when it does it's gone within a day.

I'm going to keep looking over Craigslist and other places for a good used motor, but at this point I'm seriously leaning toward getting a new Yamaha. When it comes to fixing things I'm pretty good using brute force with a sledge hammer and anvil, but was at the end of the line when they handed out the mechanical skills.

 

[Loggerhead Mike]

you cant go wrong with a shiney new motor :wink:

 

[Quackrstackr]

You will have to define used and older. Any motor produced in the last 5 years should have the majority (if not all) of it's components constructed to be compatible with ethanol. Anything within the last couple of years should be completely compatible and I would be surprised to hear otherwise.

The biggest problem with motors and ethanol in the last 5 to 7 years has been phase separation of the fuel and components external to the engine itself not being compatible (fuel tanks, fuel lines, primer bulbs, etc.).

 

[Specknreds]

The biggest problem with motors and ethanol in the last 5 to 7 years has been phase separation of the fuel and components external to the engine itself not being compatible (fuel tanks, fuel lines, primer bulbs, etc.).

Right on, Quackr

Ethanol has now cost me over a $1000 bucks. The latest is It ate the boot/o-ring on my carb. on a 04' Yamaha. It turned it to mush.

If you really want to see what Ethanol is all about, Take a gallon jug and fill it with Ethanol gas. Vent it just like your boat tank does. Let it sit for two weeks perferably outdoors, but under a shed. You will see the phase separation take place. It will shock you at the amount of water that it will bond with. I had trouble even with a fuel/water separator when I filled my 120 gallon tank up. We estimated after phase separation that I had about 5 gallons of water in my tank. The gas was 3 weeks old. It ran fine until I let it sit for the 3 weeks. It filled the water separator and by-passed it. It scorched the plugs and the mechanic said we were close to scorching a cylinder.

 

[Hanr3]

how long does gas sit in your gas tank?
How long between fill ups?
If you have water in your ethanol your letting it sit too long between uses.
Ethanol actually has higher octane than regular gas.
Ethanol is used in racing engines and has been for half a century. Ever hear of moonshine, the only difference between moonshine and ethanol is a chemical added to ethanol to make it poisionous to drink.
Yes ethanol eats pre 90's carb, gas lines, its the alcohol, it eats rubber.
Yes you get lower mpg with ethanol, however your also getting more power.

as for maintenance, gas leaves varnish deposits in gas tanks, fuel lines, and the carb. Ethanol cleans out all the varnish gas leaves behind. hence the complaint about needing service work after switching to ethanol. Again, its the alcohol, its a cleaner. If your fuel system was clean to begin with you wont have varnish deposits to plug up your jets. The ethanol will keep your fuel system clean.

one other thing, ethanol is grown and produced in teh US. It is not imported from a foreign country.

 

[crazymanme2]

I agree with Hanr3 post.I have a 1975 Merc 20 hp that I have run all summer with no problems with fuel.

 

[Specknreds]

how long does gas sit in your gas tank?
How long between fill ups?
If you have water in your ethanol your letting it sit too long between uses.
Ethanol actually has higher octane than regular gas.
Ethanol is used in racing engines and has been for half a century. Ever hear of moonshine, the only difference between moonshine and ethanol is a chemical added to ethanol to make it poisionous to drink.
Yes ethanol eats pre 90's carb, gas lines, its the alcohol, it eats rubber.
Yes you get lower mpg with ethanol, however your also getting more power.

as for maintenance, gas leaves varnish deposits in gas tanks, fuel lines, and the carb. Ethanol cleans out all the varnish gas leaves behind. hence the complaint about needing service work after switching to ethanol. Again, its the alcohol, its a cleaner. If your fuel system was clean to begin with you wont have varnish deposits to plug up your jets. The ethanol will keep your fuel system clean.

one other thing, ethanol is grown and produced in teh US. It is not imported from a foreign country.

Gas in the big boat was two weeks old.

If you do the research, you will see that there is a chemical reaction on the inital change from regular gas to Ethanol in larger tanks.

One other thing I have found is that my weather has a lot to do with it. We have had 100% humidity with 80 degree temps for the last two days and our norm is over 70% humidity. Plain and simple Ethanol bonds with moisture. It has a shelf life of 90 days under ideal conditions and a University study showed it had a shelf life of less than two weeks in a vented boat tank and high humidity.

You said Pre 90's motors. This is totally False. I have a 04' yamaha that Ethanol turned a rubber boot/o-ring into a gooey mush. I had a 08' 300hp Suzuki that it ate a fuel censor and a o-ring before I knew about ethanol. The marina I deal with said that over 50% of the boats brought in for service now days is ethanol related.

As far as Ethanol not leaving a varnish. This is partially false also. There is no doubt that Ethanol is a solvant and will actually clean your motor. The problem is it evaporates faster than regular gas. When it evaporates it leaves a varnish as well because the alcohol evaporates first leaving the gas and then varnish.

No opinions here, just first hand experience and facts.... I'm not going to debate this issue any further, as we have a hundred other times on this and every other forum. It is a fact that there are issues with ethanol and a marine enviroment. If you are not aware of these problems, I suggest you catch up and do some research. Just to give you a little back ground, I work in the marine industry, licensed Capt., and I'm on the water around 80 days a year.

 

[Floatsum]

Can only talk about my experiences.
Presently have a 130 hp Yami 2 stroke. It's a 1993 model. Never an issue (yet) with ethol. But do replace hoses and such every 3-5 yrs. as preventive maint. I take it out far enough where I'd rather not need to call Sea-Tow.

Also have a 15 hp Yami 2 stroke, Believe it's a 1997(? would need to check) Never an issue there either. Never replaced any lines or anything yet. Just don't get that far from help if need be in a small boat. Well, at least not far enough to be life threatening. :lol:

I do scrutinize them 2-3 times a year though and look for questionables to be replaced as req'd.
I do most all my own maint. I couldn't afford to let a marina / shop do my look-over at $125-$150 / hour.

I'll run Sea Foam once a year in each, lay them up with Sta-bil or something simular. Run it on higher RPM, go full choke, and kill the engine. Considered "winterized" at this point.
However, they do get inside out of the weather on the most part. Usually heated area too.

So, I can say I've never had a issue. Here in R.I. you simply can't find straight gasoline anymore. All is 10% Ethenol. I hear rumers that 15% is on the horizon as per a pending Gov't. EPA law.

Even so, I'd go new if I could, or as new as I can comfortably afford.
Biggest prob with used,,, you never know how it was treated. May have sunk a few times,, guy skimped on oil,, Ran with bad water pump,,, one never knows.

 

[Hanr3]

Done the research. Plain and simple if your having problems don't go blaming the ethanol. 90% of that liquid in your gas tank is straight gasoline.

How mcuh water do you think 10% ethanol will actually hold?

 

[cyberflexx]

In Clarksville WV, there is a place called BobCats bait and tackle and he also sells Ethanol free fuel.. it was about the same as regular fuel as far as price.