So i searched through old threads and didn't find as much about this subject as I thought I would. So I have learned about Techno-Weld and Muggy weld and then there is of course the Tig (hiring it out, right?) Muggy weld is 100 a box but looks like a great product. Techno is 27 dollars a box and seems kinda difficult with the two braising rods. But does any one want to give their own feed back on how well they work. The local welding shop quoted 120 a hour for whatever kind of welding needed, prep time included of course. To me only heating a quarter to half of the melting point of the metal to make the weld wouldn't that be just a surface weld. I am no welder even though I have one so I am talking from things I have read. I would think the 3200psi welding strength both companies claim would make minor fabrication in a boat rebuild very convenient..........and I need to weld my keel
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kjames said:
a quarter to half the melting temperature is not a weld of any kind! for a weld to be a weld you must have your material and your wire,electrode,rod etc..both heated to melting temperature in order for the atoms to bond together properly. when you weld 2 peices of metal together your weld is stronger than the metal you welded together. say you weld 2 sheets together and then pull on both ends of the sheet with a hydraulic puller the sheets will always pull apart on either side of the weld because by melting the material you make the atoms in the metal stronger than before. as for 120.00 an hour for labor thats a bit more than i would charge for that type of work. are you getting the keel welded from bow to stern or the entire length? if thats the case i think i would find another boat because thats a lot of tigging and at 120 an hour its gonna cost a small fortune. now if theres just a few spots it shouldnt cost you more than that 120.00 dollars they charge for an hour. i would get it welded either way and stay away from them other products even though they may work, i want peice of mind from knowing it will hold for the life of the boat unless you drive it off a waterfall or something....P.S. even a surface weld melts the material 100% and not a 1/4 or 1/2 way...
PSG-1
Well-known member
+1 for everything in the above post. =D>
fender66
Well-known member
I have to agree also.
Wish I had the tools/skills to do my own welding too.
Wish I had the tools/skills to do my own welding too.
MrSimon
Well-known member
Those brazing rods and other stuff like it aren't true welds. They are basically aluminum glue. Great stuff for certain applications, but definitely not for structural stuff on a boat.
You can also MIG weld aluminum with excellent results. Call around to fabrication shops in your area .... places like offroad 4x4 shops or race shops. Most places like that will have good welding set-ups with the appropriate gas. I had a local 4x4 shop weld up four broken ribs and two hull cracks in my BassTracker and they only charged me $100. The key is to have the metal properly prepped so all they have to do is run some beads.
You can also MIG weld aluminum with excellent results. Call around to fabrication shops in your area .... places like offroad 4x4 shops or race shops. Most places like that will have good welding set-ups with the appropriate gas. I had a local 4x4 shop weld up four broken ribs and two hull cracks in my BassTracker and they only charged me $100. The key is to have the metal properly prepped so all they have to do is run some beads.
PSG-1
Well-known member
MrSimon said:
BINGO! This cuts down on costs a good bit. When you pay a welder's hourly rate, this isn't just for welding, it's for cutting, fitup, prep time, grinding, cleaning, equipment set-up, gas, wire, power to run the welder, insurance, taxes, licensing, and of course you're paying for their skill, as they are the one who's gone and taken the AWS certification test, at 350 dollars per test, per procedure, per position. (There are 6 tests just for stick welding steel, much less getting into MIG and TIG, and all the other metals. Just to be certified in all positions with aluminum, stainless, and steel with MIG, TIG and stick welding, will cost over $15,000 in tests....oh, and did I mention, the welder also has to pay a 10 dollar maintenance fee on each certification every six months? For those 51 certifications, it would cost well over $1,000 per year)
Anyhow, I love it when customers have pre-cleaned something to be welded, makes my job easier, and costs the customer less.
I absolutely hate it when they bring me a boat they've tried to 'fix' with JB weld, roofing tar, paint, bubble gum, whatever crap they've put on there that I have to spend 1/2 hour grinding, wire brushing and burning off with the torch before it can be welded. Almost makes me want to double my price, but no need for that, because when it takes twice the time, they are going to pay twice the amount.
So hands down everyone agrees weld the keel. In trying to get one of my buddies to weld that's what they all say just throw some putty in it but I have the split cleaned out and the boat doesn't leak I just want it fixed. The debating I was looking for was has any one used these product say to add peices inside the boat for supports in adding decking or for fixing leaks. I will get into my boats problem in another thread. My biggest thing with these products is I am a do it myself kind of guy so they make sense to me on small projects but wonderjng if they make sense to any one else. He is exactly right its basically a glue but.....they claim 20000 psi at 300 degrees and 30000 psi at 600 degrees. And for nonsructure work do what do you think
PSG-1
Well-known member
Not disagreeing with you or trying to bash, but, I'm going to call bull chit on their PSI rating claim, right here and now.
Mild steel only has a rating of 60,000 PSI, aluminum is about 1/3 this amount. So, are we to believe that some glue is going to meet, or exceed the pressure rating of aluminum?
Yeah, I'll use that to fix my aluminum boat before I go marlin fishing at my oceanfront house in Kansas.
Of course, I invite the manufacturer to come onto this board and make a rebuttal by posting their info, which I will take apart at the joints, and expose it for the lie that it is.
Mild steel only has a rating of 60,000 PSI, aluminum is about 1/3 this amount. So, are we to believe that some glue is going to meet, or exceed the pressure rating of aluminum?
Yeah, I'll use that to fix my aluminum boat before I go marlin fishing at my oceanfront house in Kansas.
Of course, I invite the manufacturer to come onto this board and make a rebuttal by posting their info, which I will take apart at the joints, and expose it for the lie that it is.
you may wanna edit your post, because therePSG-1 said:
there are products out there that are basically a moldable steel that you can mix and form by hand or hammer that have a psi rating of that and higher, they use for industrial repairs(band aids so they dont have to shut down and loose production and millions of dollars until the last second when the boilmakers/steamfitters etc..get there to put a better band aid that will last longer than the one the plant guys put on using them products. unless they have union guys on site every day for normal maintainence the plants insurance policies will not let the plant employees do any repairs involving cutting,welding,fabricating,removing lines,pipes or altering the normal function of any part of the system or anything else of that nature, but their insurance will let them use that type of product to make any repairs not involving the before mentioned. ive seen stuff rated up to 28,000 psi but have never used it being one of the boilermakers that get called to come and repair it the right way. do some googling or binging and you will find the products he mentioned.....
PSG-1 said:
each one of our AWS coupons we do for certification cost close to 1000 bucks and by the time i did all of them,TIG,MIG,SMAW etc....they had over 40,000 bucks invested. that being said ive never seen any welder with my qualifications working in a repair shop when they could make 10 times the amount of money using their qualifications and certifications doing the work that they require. thats why it cracks me up when i hear people charging what most of them charge when they couldnt weld a coupon and pass it if you gave them 10 trys...and just so were understood im not saying that psg-1 is not certified or qualified to perform such welding, i was just commenting on the post. and mr.simon using brazing rod as a filler material is welding its used on some aluminum and other applications when you can not use a lot of heat required by migging or sheilded metal arc welding because of the guage and material being welded would turn into water more or less because of the high temps needed for those applications. you can control the heat with argon(tigging) so you dont melt the material away before you can fill it. its a lot slower process but it is in every way true welding just like using an electrode(stick) or metal inert gas welding(migging)........
fender66 said:
buy ya a used mig welder(wire welding is simple if you have 2 steady hands and you are not blind0 and find some scrap steel and get at it. learning to make welds on stuff other than pressure vessels,steam lines etc...is pretty easy. now smac and tungsten inert gas welding requires instruction and lots of practice unless you have supernatural abilities lol! first time i picked up mig welder i was making good welds with it the next day. think of it as laying down a nice even bead of caulk and if you can do that then you can mig weld good enough to do your own welding.
PSG-1
Well-known member
shawnfish said:
Sounds like X-ray welding and testing procedures, especially at that price. This is far beyond my field of expertise.
Very true. No welder with those certifications is going to work in the average welding shop, making $10-$15 an hour.
LOL, quite true. A person does not have to be AWS certified to call themselves a welder. Anybody with a buzz box and a torch can be a 'welder' But it doesn't mean they can pass a certification test. Most welding shops around here don't even have certified welders, and if they do, it's a very small percentage of their employees.
Well, I don't have $40K in certifications, that's for sure! I'm certified in SMAW for structural welding, as that's the only thing I encounter where a certification is required. Never got into X-ray welding in nuclear power plants and all of that really critical welding. But I do have about 18 years of dealing with just about every type of job that a typical welding shop would encounter.
PSG-1
Well-known member
shawnfish said:
My point exactly. Glue, moldable steel, bubble gum, whatever, is a temporary band aid, not intended for permanent use. I'm an advocate of going ahead and making the repair correctly, I've never liked the idea of temporarily patching anything, and praying that it holds.
Mojo^
Well-known member
Those whiz-bang welding rods are primarily made of zinc which accounts for the low melting point. Zinc + aluminum in the presence of moisture = galvanic corrosion. Anything that simply melts and covers a crack or seam is not a weld. Welding fuses metal, it's not a caulk.
Thank you guys I learned allot from the debate. I am assuming most of you checked out the products for yourself. I just looked at their websites after rereading this thread. I completely agree its a glue just dont see how the get their numbers. I am almost curious enough to try it. [-X well if I do I will post results
zipperer
Member
3m 08115 panel bond with aluminum patch for hole
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