lights for my bow?

[yareelohim]

Bump for this one...

rickybobbybend wrote:

Hey, California has regulations for everything. Try a marine dealer, DFW, marine board, or just ask Mr. Google. I'll bet there is even a required boaters' course.

Thanks for the references.

I checked as much as I could and there seems to be no laws stating what most say here concerning headlights, at least not in California.

If someone has a law they can quote, that would be much appreciated. Virtually every duck boat I see in California runs head lights.

The only restriction I found was:
1) cannot obscure vision of other boaters.

2) cannot cause the Nav lights to be mistaken or obscured.

I suppose our duck hunters use lights because we like to go out when there is no moon and pitch black on the water.

Again, if someone can quote a law instead of hearsay or opinion, that would be great! If your a person who says its illegal, please send me the legal code where it states that.

I don't want to be cited if its illegal.

Thanks!

 

[acabtp]

yareelohim » 25 minutes ago[/url]"]I checked as much as I could and there seems to be no laws stating what most say here concerning headlights, at least not in California.

If someone has a law they can quote, that would be much appreciated. Virtually every duck boat I see in California runs head lights.

you are looking in the wrong place. it is covered by federal regulations. you can review the regulations at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule20

To quote Rule 20 Part (b):

The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

since a white headlight can easily be mistaken for a white running/anchor light, they are clearly excluded from use.

regarding every other duck boat in California running with them... if every other duck boat in California jumped off a bridge... you get the idea

and for the guys who, even though it's illegal and even though it is shittier for other people than someone headed your way on a dark 2 lane road with their high beams on, the guys who say that they "need headlights" on to run on the darkest night of the new moon, after a torrential rain, in a river filled with logs and snapping turtles and sharks and dinosaurs or whatever... there's no good reason to be out then anyway, the fish and the ducks will be there another time

 

[Lowe 2070 CC]

acabtp » 42 minutes ago[/url]"]

yareelohim » 25 minutes ago[/url]"]I checked as much as I could and there seems to be no laws stating what most say here concerning headlights, at least not in California.

If someone has a law they can quote, that would be much appreciated. Virtually every duck boat I see in California runs head lights.

you are looking in the wrong place. it is covered by federal regulations. you can review the regulations at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule20

To quote Rule 20 Part (b):

The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

since a white headlight can easily be mistaken for a white running/anchor light, they are clearly excluded from use.

regarding every other duck boat in California running with them... if every other duck boat in California jumped off a bridge... you get the idea

and for the guys who, even though it's illegal and even though it is shittier for other people than someone headed your way on a dark 2 lane road with their high beams on, the guys who say that they "need headlights" on to run on the darkest night of the new moon, after a torrential rain, in a river filled with logs and snapping turtles and sharks and dinosaurs or whatever... there's no good reason to be out then anyway, the fish and the ducks will be there another time

No need to be a jerk, I run on the river for business and pleasure. Every boat out there at night runs a spotlight (not headlights, I already addressed the fact that they are worthless). If you aren't familiar with looking for floating debris, good for you, but I don't think anyone here needs your permission to travel by water after dark.

 

[yareelohim]

yareelohim » 25 minutes ago[/url]"]I checked as much as I could and there seems to be no laws stating what most say here concerning headlights, at least not in California.

If someone has a law they can quote, that would be much appreciated. Virtually every duck boat I see in California runs head lights.

you are looking in the wrong place. it is covered by federal regulations. you can review the regulations at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule20

To quote Rule 20 Part (b):

The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

since a white headlight can easily be mistaken for a white running/anchor light, they are clearly excluded from use.

regarding every other duck boat in California running with them... if every other duck boat in California jumped off a bridge... you get the idea

and for the guys who, even though it's illegal and even though it is shittier for other people than someone headed your way on a dark 2 lane road with their high beams on, the guys who say that they "need headlights" on to run on the darkest night of the new moon, after a torrential rain, in a river filled with logs and snapping turtles and sharks and dinosaurs or whatever... there's no good reason to be out then anyway, the fish and the ducks will be there another time

So this law still does not exclude "head lights" or any other outward light which does not do one of the 2 things I stated earlier.

1) cannot be mistaken for Nav lights

2) cannot impair others vision

So correct me if I am wrong but according to the law...external lights are perfectly fine if they observe the first two conditions.

I.e. headlights, spot lights, etc

Personal opinions aside...the law you quoted which is the same place I looked affirms external lights are perfectly fine.

Why do people say their illegal?

 

[RiverBottomOutdoors]

and for the guys who, even though it's illegal and even though it is shittier for other people than someone headed your way on a dark 2 lane road with their high beams on, the guys who say that they "need headlights" on to run on the darkest night of the new moon, after a torrential rain, in a river filled with logs and snapping turtles and sharks and dinosaurs or whatever... there's no good reason to be out then anyway, the fish and the ducks will be there another time

This dude is clueless. Just ignore his advice. He obviously doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

 

[Quackrstackr]

yareelohim » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:31 pm[/url]]

So this law still does not exclude "head lights" or any other outward light which does not do one of the 2 things I stated earlier.

1) cannot be mistaken for Nav lights

2) cannot impair others vision

So correct me if I am wrong but according to the law...external lights are perfectly fine if they observe the first two conditions.

I.e. headlights, spot lights, etc

Personal opinions aside...the law you quoted which is the same place I looked affirms external lights are perfectly fine.

Why do people say their illegal?

Roll the dice and take your chances. I know that in KY, during the summer on waters that are regularly patrolled, you will get a ticket for running headlights. It also happens on a lot of other bodies of water. I was just reading another forum that I frequent yesterday and there was a thread started by a guy that received a $216 ticket just last weekend for it. I also have a buddy that mounted a set under the bow of his glass bass boat and ran them for a year before earning himself a big ticket. He now has two ugly lights hanging under his boat that he can't even use.

 

[chevyrulz]

Quackrstackr » Yesterday, 15:36[/url]"]

chevyrulz » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:47 pm[/url]"]now they do use chinese LEDs, but so does every other flashlight manufacturer out there...

If I'm not mistaken, Cree (LED chip manufacturer) is located in NC. I don't guess that means that they are actually manufactured here, though.

i could be mistaken, i just assume everything's made in china these days lol

 

[acabtp]

yareelohim » Today, 00:31[/url]"]So this law still does not exclude "head lights" or any other outward light which does not do one of the 2 things I stated earlier.

1) cannot be mistaken for Nav lights

2) cannot impair others vision

So correct me if I am wrong but according to the law...external lights are perfectly fine if they observe the first two conditions.

I.e. headlights, spot lights, etc

Personal opinions aside...the law you quoted which is the same place I looked affirms external lights are perfectly fine.

Why do people say their illegal?

the law is very clear, i don't understand how you think it allows headlights.
point 1) headlights and spotlights are white, they can be mistaken for white navigation lights. so they are excluded.
point 2) headlights and spotlights do very much impair the vision of other boaters. so they are excluded.

 

[acabtp]

RiverBottomOutdoors » Today, 08:50[/url]"]

and for the guys who, even though it's illegal and even though it is shittier for other people than someone headed your way on a dark 2 lane road with their high beams on, the guys who say that they "need headlights" on to run on the darkest night of the new moon, after a torrential rain, in a river filled with logs and snapping turtles and sharks and dinosaurs or whatever... there's no good reason to be out then anyway, the fish and the ducks will be there another time

This dude is clueless. Just ignore his advice. He obviously doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

sorry man, i guess my common sense got the best of me

 

[yareelohim]

Roll the dice and take your chances. I know that in KY, during the summer on waters that are regularly patrolled, you will get a ticket for running headlights. It also happens on a lot of other bodies of water. I was just reading another forum that I frequent yesterday and there was a thread started by a guy that received a $216 ticket just last weekend for it. I also have a buddy that mounted a set under the bow of his glass bass boat and ran them for a year before earning himself a big ticket. He now has two ugly lights hanging under his boat that he can't even use.

Thanks for that. I am still searching for California laws as nobody seems to really know for sure. Once fish and game gets back to me on the legality of the issue I will let everyone know what they say.

I definitely don't want a ticket. I also definitely need lights at times during duck season. Whether that is headlights or spot light, doesn't matter...just need external lights.

Thanks again for that reference.

 

[yareelohim]

the law is very clear, i don't understand how you think it allows headlights.
point 1) headlights and spotlights are white, they can be mistaken for white navigation lights. so they are excluded.
point 2) headlights and spotlights do very much impair the vision of other boaters. so they are excluded.

If your external lights, which law states are okay to have, do not break the two elements, then they are legal. The law specifically stated that, and as you said, is clear on that matter.

1) You are assuming the external lights are white, they don't have to be white.

Lets say, Xenon HID blue or amber is what a person chose for external. That doesn't break element #1.

2) You are assuming the direction and beam of the lights.

Obviously no one would shine a spotlight in someone's eyes, and one could very well dim or turn off their lights at oncoming boaters. The direction of the lights could also be pointed in a manner which would not impair on coming boaters.

So with the my variables wr could come up with which stay in the scope of the elements of crime...external lights CAN be perfectly fine according to THIS law.

We have people saying they are illegal. The law says they are legal if they don't break 2 elements. Obviously there are external lights and situations which are legal as the law accounts for that scenario, yet people still say they are illegal.

I'll stick with the law until someone can show an opposing law for California, which we haven't seen yet. We have only witnessed hearsay and opinion.

I think this a great subject and appreciate everyone's input. Hopefully we will get to the root of it. I am going to assume there must be a state, county, or municipal ordinance which may or may not allow external lights as some say YES on lights and some say NO. However, it is clear the only law previously stated does account for situations when they will be used and says just abide by two elements and they can be used.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[acabtp]

yareelohim » Today, 11:00[/url]"]

the law is very clear, i don't understand how you think it allows headlights.
point 1) headlights and spotlights are white, they can be mistaken for white navigation lights. so they are excluded.
point 2) headlights and spotlights do very much impair the vision of other boaters. so they are excluded.

If your external lights, which law states are okay to have, do not break the two elements, then they are legal. The law specifically stated that, and as you said, is clear on that matter.

1) You are assuming the external lights are white, they don't have to be white.

Lets say, Xenon HID blue or amber is what a person chose for external. That doesn't break element #1.

2) You are assuming the direction and beam of the lights.

Obviously no one would shine a spotlight in someone's eyes, and one could very well dim or turn off their lights at oncoming boaters. The direction of the lights could also be pointed in a manner which would not impair on coming boaters.

So with the my variables wr could come up with which stay in the scope of the elements of crime...external lights CAN be perfectly fine according to THIS law.

We have people saying they are illegal. The law says they are legal if they don't break 2 elements. Obviously there are external lights and situations which are legal as the law accounts for that scenario, yet people still say they are illegal.

I'll stick with the law until someone can show an opposing law for California, which we haven't seen yet. We have only witnessed hearsay and opinion.

I think this a great subject and appreciate everyone's input. Hopefully we will get to the root of it. I am going to assume there must be a state, county, or municipal ordinance which may or may not allow external lights as some say YES on lights and some say NO. However, it is clear the only law previously stated does account for situations when they will be used and says just abide by two elements and they can be used.

Thoughts anyone?

the "root of it" has already been gotten to. you have been quoted the law, but you don't like what it says, so you are still looking.
it doesn't matter what you find in any state, county or municipal laws either, as none of those can supersede federal law, and the federal law is clear on the matter. i am sorry, but no matter how much you want them to be, they aren't legal.

 

[acabtp]

you can ask the coast guard directly about this if you are so inclined

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/index.php?pageName=contactUs

i did, and will post up their response as soon as it comes in

 

[yareelohim]

yareelohim » Today, 11:00[/url]"]

the law is very clear, i don't understand how you think it allows headlights.
point 1) headlights and spotlights are white, they can be mistaken for white navigation lights. so they are excluded.
point 2) headlights and spotlights do very much impair the vision of other boaters. so they are excluded.

If your external lights, which law states are okay to have, do not break the two elements, then they are legal. The law specifically stated that, and as you said, is clear on that matter.

1) You are assuming the external lights are white, they don't have to be white.

Lets say, Xenon HID blue or amber is what a person chose for external. That doesn't break element #1.

2) You are assuming the direction and beam of the lights.

Obviously no one would shine a spotlight in someone's eyes, and one could very well dim or turn off their lights at oncoming boaters. The direction of the lights could also be pointed in a manner which would not impair on coming boaters.

So with the my variables wr could come up with which stay in the scope of the elements of crime...external lights CAN be perfectly fine according to THIS law.

We have people saying they are illegal. The law says they are legal if they don't break 2 elements. Obviously there are external lights and situations which are legal as the law accounts for that scenario, yet people still say they are illegal.

I'll stick with the law until someone can show an opposing law for California, which we haven't seen yet. We have only witnessed hearsay and opinion.

I think this a great subject and appreciate everyone's input. Hopefully we will get to the root of it. I am going to assume there must be a state, county, or municipal ordinance which may or may not allow external lights as some say YES on lights and some say NO. However, it is clear the only law previously stated does account for situations when they will be used and says just abide by two elements and they can be used.

Thoughts anyone?

the "root of it" has already been gotten to. you have been quoted the law, but you don't like what it says, so you are still looking.
it doesn't matter what you find in any state, county or municipal laws either, as none of those can supersede federal law, and the federal law is clear on the matter. i am sorry, but no matter how much you want them to be, they aren't legal.

Personally...I can care less if my boat had or didn't have external lights...although it is necessary for me in certain situation to have them.

I am also confident that the law I quoted before you which came from the same source says external lights are fine.

What I don't like is people stating hearsay as law. I also don't like people mixing personal opinion with law.

You can see this truth from each one of my posts as I am unbiased and in pursuit of truth. Also asking people to post the laws they are quoting so i know beyond hearsay. Your posts are the only ones mixing personal opinion. I am not ignorant enough to believe hearsay as law.

Also, for your information...just like Prop 215 which legalizes marijuana in California but still is not federally recognized. State, local and municipal laws heavily apply outside of federal laws. I just finished reading 400 pages of California Code of Regulations for Boating and Waterways. Still only found laws which say...external lights are okay within reason. Still have not found a law that says they are illegal without exception as many have stated.

Please quote that law for us again and highlight that point where it talks about "external lights." I am wondering if it says..."no external lights."

I'll stick with what the law states, not what your biased and personal opinion misguides people to believe.

 

[cva34]

Take a look at this but good info https://www.commanderbob.com/art24.html

 

[acabtp]

yareelohim » 54 minutes ago[/url]"]Also, for your information...just like Prop 215 which legalizes marijuana in California but still is not federally recognized. State, local and municipal laws heavily apply outside of federal laws.

That could be the root of the confusion here... state, local, and municipal laws do not at all "apply outside of federal laws". The USCG regulations for navigational lights are the law for all US based vessels, in every state. This is true not just for boating laws, but for everything. Federal law trumps state law, it's just how the system is set up in this country. Here are some reference so you know this isn't just an opinion of mine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause
if you don't like Wikipedia here are a couple law schools
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/supremacy_clause
https://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/preemption.htm

A state can add more restrictions, regulations or laws, but any place that the state's laws conflict with federal law, federal law supersedes. So if the USCG says no headlights/spotlights while underway, then it doesn't matter what California (or any other state) says about them.

Using your example of Prop 215 for the state of California, federal agents can, and do on a regular basis, make raids to close down marijuana dispensaries and grow operations that the state of California says are legal, because they federal government considers them to be illegal. The state of California cannot do anything about this, because federal law overrules state law. Here are some references so you know this isn't just an opinion of mine:
https://www.ocregister.com/news/marijuana-369162-federal-owners.html
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/03/oaksterdam-university-raid_n_1397255.html
https://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/26/local/la-me-medical-marijuana-20120926
https://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/06/marijuana_crackdown_newton_rampart_federal.php

Per your request to requote the USCG reg again, the section that applies is the United States Coast Guard M16672.2D Navigation Rules, Part C, Rule 20, Section (b) which states:

The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

The referenced "Rules concerning lights" are in Part C, Rule 21 and include standard navigation lights: masthead light (white), sidelights (green and red), sternlight (white), towing light (yellow), all-round light, flashing light, and special flashing light (yellow). Headlights, spotlights, et cetera are not specified.
The Navigation Rules are available for review at https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent

Once again, I urge you to go to the source, and ask the Coast Guard yourself.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/index.php?pageName=contactUs
Like I said before, I already contacted them for you to ask about the headlights/spotlight while underway issue and I will post their response when I get it. Maybe you should ask them when their regulations do not apply to US boats, I bet they would get a real kick out of that. :LOL2:

cva34 » Today, 17:58[/url]"]Take a look at this but good info https://www.commanderbob.com/art24.html

=D>

 

[yareelohim]

acabtp » Today, 16:14[/url]"]
So if the USCG says no headlights/spotlights while underway, then it doesn't matter what California (or any other state) says about them.

“The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.”

This is what I am after…you say “IF the USCG says…”

But you only quote a source that says no other lights EXCEPT lights which cannot be mistaken, impair or interfere. That except would mean…if they cannot be mistaken, impair or interfere…then they are okay.

So are you confused or clear on what that except means? Maybe I am interpreting it wrong. According to the only law you have quoted, how do you interpret the “except”?

acabtp » Today, 16:14[/url]"]
Once again, I urge you to go to the source, and ask the Coast Guard yourself.

I fear you may not have read my previous posts in their entirety. If you have then you will realize this was the second thing I already did.

1) I researched the law for myself from the US Harbor Code and California Code of Regulations.

Due to either the ambiguity of the law concerning the word “EXCEPT” or my misinterpretation of the law according to the
word “EXCEPT” and not wanting to take hearsay…

2) I already contacted California Fish and Game…our County Sheriff Department (who actually writes our boating laws here)…The California Department of Boating and Waterways …and the USCG.

All this prior to you posting. Your posts could be beneficial to me but they are highly irrelevant considering what you are stating is OLD NEWS.

Maybe you can be beneficial and shed light for me on how you interpret this law and the word except? It is very possible I have the wrong interpretation. I interpret it to mean exactly what I have already stated.

What I am also looking for is if there are any other laws concerning external lights which I do not already know about and have asked others to post them. So far you or anyone else has not.

I suppose I will have to wait for the proper authorities to get back to me on helping me know if there are other laws which I cannot find, and the proper interpretation of the one law we are quoting.

 

[Quackrstackr]

Spotlights are legal, I know that for fact. You can go to any river in the US and watch the barge traffic to see that.

They use massive spotlights whenever making a turn or approaching an obstacle such as a bridge but they do not run them full time.

Maybe I will invite my buddy the USCG certified barge pilot over for a lesson on the applicable laws.

ETA: This is the post I referenced earlier. I was low on the $. It happened two weeks ago in TN.

well guys its been long forth coming here, the sport is growing and the conservation goes to the easiest visible target lol,.. we were on the lake on tuesday night, not allot of other boats but the one we didnt care to see... we got pulled over underway coming out of a cove with all of the 400s on and the nav lights and anchor light, $219.50 ticket for nav lights, says you cant see them and boaters wouldnt know where the boat is going LMFAO.. really cant see us and where we are going???? , we will be at the court date, O forgot to mention that one... with pictures of trees that we see floating in the lakes and a police report of the boat that we sank last year by hitting some random object in the water.... any suggestions would be greatly appreciated,,, we are hoping this ticket makes it to A High ups desk before then, its not good to miss work for a BS court date......

 

[yareelohim]

Quackrstackr

Thanks again for that. If you hear the outcome of the court decision, you will post that for us too.

From what I read, I think your right concerning spotlights. I am trying to talk to our Fish and Game Department to make sure that wouldn't be viewed as "spotlighting" for game considering we hunt the river for ducks and deer.

If you get ahold of your buddy with the USCG, I would love to hear his view too.

Thanks again for your posts.

 

[Blake]

I really just wanted to talk about lights, not laws...